dr_st
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dr_stParticipantI just bought the GOG version, so will probably try that.
dr_stParticipantThe nice thing about the Monkey Island SE games was that you could switch between modern high-quality and classic pixel graphics on the fly.
But I never did. Since I didn’t play these games as a child, I had no nostalgic value attached to the original pixel art, and it does not looks as charming on a big hi-res LCD as it did on contemporary CRTs.
dr_stParticipantAn automap would make hunting for secrets far easier (not to mention navigating the mazes would become trivial). The extremely limited level geometry would clearly show you where secrets can and cannot exist.
I also am happy Wolfenstein 3D was selected – I enjoyed revisiting.
dr_stParticipantWell, even though I only remembered about this month’s game two thirds into the month, I still somehow managed to beat the first three episodes of Wolfenstein 3D. So, in a way, I could say that I’ve completed the game – since a 3-episode registered version was released at one point. š
I think I played E1 on skill 2, E2 on skill 3 and E2 on skill 1. What a bizarre mix. This, of course, makes a huge difference in difficulty. Mostly because of the damage / accuracy of the hitscanners, which seems to be boosted significantly with every difficulty increase.
It didn’t help that E2 is infested with the mutants, and those are the toughest enemies in the game. š
I also felt in general that the E3 levels were shorter and less convoluted than those of E2. Getting 100% of everything in most levels was easier, although typically I would be satisfied with 100% kills and treasure, and not bother with 100% secrets. On some levels I was fed up and didn’t feel like hunting for secrets.
I also decided to skip the crazy pushwall maze with 170+ pushwalls in E2L7, and the maze to get to the secret elevator in E3L7.
Replaying it now, I can definitely appreciate some of the design, visuals and puzzles that the developers had managed to achieve with such a limited engine. However, there is no escaping the repetitiveness. Don’t feel like playing episodes 4-6 or Spear of Destiny any time soon.
I think the music is my favorite part of the game.
dr_stParticipantI don’t have a memory of Mac Wolf3D, but just watching a brief video – I do like the hi-res graphics, and the higher quality of the sounds. More weapon variety is fun. However, I like the soundtrack less.
Will definitely play through Macenwolf at some point, just for fun.
dr_stParticipantIt seems pretty consistent with other games of that era. I believe keyboard only is how it was meant to be played.
dr_stParticipantI’ll discuss The Need for Speed happily.
I played that game quite extensively back in the day. That and NFS2 (which is Windows only). After that I abandoned the series. It felt like too much grind.
dr_stParticipantIt is also QUITE (as in VERY) challenging if you want to rescue all 99 Mudokons without a walkthrough. A very enjoyable game. Dark and funny at the same time.
dr_stParticipantYou know, I had known about the shortcut keys since the start (can’t imagine without them), but the tip about the right-click I only learned now when you said it. Yes, this could have been a game changer for me back in the day.
dr_stParticipantIn some ways, Karateka to Prince of Persia is what “Kosmonaut” (the original Skyroads) is to the actual Skyroads.
Or like Warcraft 1 to Warcraft II and StarCraft.
It is a test of concepts and ideas, somewhat raw and unpolished, not very fun to play, and especially to replay, but without it – the much better sequels would not exist.
dr_stParticipantPrecisely what sorceress had said.
It jumps from too easy to too hard so fast, that the fun ended right there.
dr_stParticipantAs promised, here is the video of this section in patched 1.3 (from GOG.com):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7MMKJcnB_gAnd I could confirm (after locating an unpatched 1.3 ISO) that it is truly practically impossible in that version.
dr_stParticipantSweet! What I love about Karateka is that it’s short. I can totally replay it (probably more than once, too) for November’s discussion.
dr_stParticipantI have two versions – 1.2 and 1.3 (GOG). I’m gonna have to remember to try this Orbitus thingy.
OK, according to the table on the page linked to in the version differences thread, my 1.2 is the ‘good’ one and my 1.3 GOG is patched. If you download the game from GOG.com nown you will get the patched version too -I confirmed it by comparing the file data.
Anyhow, this part is tricky but totally doable in patched 1.3. Might take a few attempts to figure out the timing. You should start holding the right direction key as you approach the bottom passage, and not let go of it until you are through. The bouncy floors will throw you upwards, but as long as you hould the button down, you should make it into the next gap.
In good 1.2 it is pretty much the same, except possibly a tad easier since there are invisible ‘cracks’ in the bouncy floors that Jazz just falls through.
I will try to record a video at some point, although I am sure many versions are already up on Youtube.
dr_stParticipantThere is a little extra depth in Jazz2 in the way that Jazz, Spaz (and later, Lori) each play a little different from the rest. I think there are even some areas that only one of the characters can reach, and alternate routes.
dr_stParticipantSame as you say – the extra resolution and visibility of Jazz2 makes it a more reasonable game to play, as you feel more in control of things.
And yet somehow, with all the sprites and everything being so small, I cannot help but feeling “detached” from everything. So I actually ended up playing it less than Jazz1.
dr_stParticipantGamepads? Who would seriously try playing old DOS platformers with Gamepads? They don’t work half the time, and when they do, they are still more clumsy than a good old-type keyboard. š
Gravis gamepads in particular are very far from what they are cracked up to be. They are way too sensitive and introduce unintended diagonals all the time.
Back on topic…
Having played through all the Jazz Jackrabbit episodes ages ago, I can agree – the levels are mostly identical / forgettable. Then again Sonic (the inspiration) is not very different in this regard. However, unlike Sonic, even the boss battles in Jazz are mostly generic / easy. The Episode 6 boss (final boss of original release) is a memorable exception.
Some gameplay issues I see with Jazz are:
1. The levels are packed with secrets, but the running countdown deters exploration.
2. Bumping the skill level hits you in both aspects at once – Jazz has fewer hitpoints and less time, too. It seems ‘Medium’ is the only reasonable skill level to use. ‘Easy’ is too easy, ‘Hard’ may be frustrating.
dr_stParticipantIt says that it was apparently built into the game, available in November through January. Maybe in some versions only?
dr_stParticipantI think it was just that at the time (or for that magazine), 80% was considered a very good score. They are mostly positive, and praise the non-distracting visual style.
I do agree that on ‘easy’ the game provides virtually no challenge, but hey – that’s what the harder difficulty levels are for, no?
I remember Cool Spot, which they compare it to, being much more annoying to play, and not in a good way.
dr_stParticipantI saw that video several (or many?) years ago. It’s pretty neat to realize that one of the most recognizable Keen songs, despite being instrumental only (as all of them are), has lyrics behind it. š
dr_stParticipantThat Stratagus engine looks super-neat. I would even say that War1gus is the bigger deal, since, beyond making Warcraft 1 more playable on modern systems, it also completely overhauls the clunky interface of the original game.
dr_stParticipantIt certainly has a very unique vibe!
Another one I remember liking now is Technoir.
dr_stParticipantThose are some good tips. Jazz was clearly an attempt to mimic the fast gameplay of Sonic on the PC, but where Sonic uses his own body as a weapon, Jazz has a very nice arsenal.
The downside of going through the game at blazing speed is you might not get to enjoy the pretty scenery of some of the levels.
dr_stParticipantYes, this is pretty amazing. They would not be able to sell it, since it seems to be using “borrowed” assets from the original, but as a parody it’s great.
dr_stParticipantNice! I would say more like “inspired” by the first level of D1. The layout and progression feel quite different.
dr_stParticipantInteresting… I should investigate it myself now that I got the GOG version alongside my “alternative source” copy.
Edit: I just tried, and with GUS=TRUE in the DOSBox configuration file, and ULTRADIR pointing to the appropriate patch directory, I get music and sound with the GUS option, both in my own DOSBox collection, and in the GOG version I just installed.
It sounds the same as the Soundblaster option, though, which is what I would expect, really, given that the music is tracker (PSM) and not MIDI.
What am I missing?
dr_stParticipantThe GOG version of Jazz uses DOSBox. You can always tweak the settings or simply copy the game files over to your own custom DOSBox installation and tinker with it until you get GUS to work. I doubt there is something in the game files that breaks it.
dr_stParticipant@Cas
Very impressive to have built an editor for the game! There have been many map packs for Supaplex throughout the years. I don’t think I will ever feel like trying them, though. Just the 111 original levels felt like an immense achievement to me. I struggled with it as a kid, and only in adulthood did I finally crunch down and beat them all. Took many weeks of play here and there.I agree – the palette is especially nice for 16 colors. Another game which did well with 16-color VGA is Duke Nukem II.
@prowler
Ah, yes, the blessings and curses of being accustomed to a particular keyboard layout. A well-known problem. I can’t stand laptop keyboard nowadays because of that.
dr_stParticipantWow, that’s a very deep rundown. I had no idea. My version is the CD 1.2, and I remember completing it without cheats. Maybe I lucked out or did lots of grinding on the ‘too hard’ levels, and the Marbelara secret bug, I would not have even realized I have – I would have just failed the level and assumed I missed a way to beat it.
Thanks for bringing it up. I realized only now that I did not have the Jazz/Jazz2 in my GOG library, so I bought them this instant. Great timing too, as both are on sale!
dr_stParticipantI never realized that it was Spaz in HH’95.
The first world of HH’95 (Candion) uses a totally awesome remix of Carol of the Bells as the music.
dr_stParticipantMy first experience playing Quake was from a friend who had been to the US shortly after the release, and brought back the shareware version on floppies. I remember I quite enjoyed it.
Then I had obtained the leaked Beta3 (for the love it, cannot remember where from), and decided immediately to warp to the last level.
https://quake.fandom.com/wiki/Shub-Niggurath%27s_Pit_(Beta3)
Little did I know that the last level in the beta was incomplete and could not be finished. š
Edit: you can now get Beta3 from here:
https://hiddenpalace.org/Quake_(Jun_21,_1996_prototype)
dr_stParticipantI started a casual game of Quake a few years back, playing on Easy in DOSBox. Got bored and stopped somewhere in the middle of the third episode. Now I decided to try to complete it while it’s game of the month. š Didn’t quite get there – still have a few E4 levels to go, let’s see if I can finish up tonight.
Still, I like Quake more than Quake II. The levels are short, which makes it easier to divide the game into small chunks. Important for someone like me, who doesn’t generally have lots of consecutive play time. The monsters have more variety to them too.
Edit: yes, I did finish it last night. The penultimate E4 level (The Pain Maze) was 100% true to its name. The most annoying level in the game – even on Easy. I must have not figured out the proper way of playing through it.
dr_stParticipantAh, yes, I missed the context of the question.
I think the Me/2000/XP version is just a patched version to make it compatible with these newer operating systems, but you are probably correct that both are the CD-ROM versions.
dr_stParticipantI think floppy version is subtitles and CD-ROM is the talkie version?
dr_stParticipantGot around to recording and uploading the last levels of Lost Vikings II as well. This time there are 5 characters, but since only 3 can appear in a single level – the battle with Tomator had to be split between 2 levels. š
Level 30:
https://youtu.be/1k5_yaJeGx4Level 31:
https://youtu.be/WEOGe3A7RRc
WARNING: The ending of the last level contains a MAJOR spoiler, so keep that in mind if you haven’t played the game yet. šGetting a clean run of Level 31 (no damage and no wasted attacks against Tomator) is insanely hard (for me at least). I got lucky that it only took a handful of attempts this time, so I decided not forgive myself for a few small blunders, and upload the video “as is”. The other videos also have minor mistakes, so it’s OK. I will not waste hours and hours striving for perfection here. Not now at least. š
dr_stParticipantIt felt quite challenging to beat the first time through, although now I feel some earlier levels may actually be more difficult.
Plus, I love the ending.
P.S. I could record the DOS version, but it would require re-encoding as it runs in 320×200 which would be the wrong aspect ratio if you take the recorded video as is. You can find examples of such videos on the web. DOSBox emulates the behavior you would get on a real DOS machine with a 4:3 CRT and makes pixels non-square, but only for the screen output, not for recording.
dr_stParticipantFun fact – The Sega 32x version of Blackthorne contains a hidden room in one of the exclusive snow levels, which features the three Vikings, in their outfits from the SNES version of Lost Vikings II.
Fun fact #2 – For whatever reason, if you choose to collect the potion in the middle of this screen, both Kyle (the protagonist) and his pants will become red, and the effect will even stay past the end of the level.
Attachments:
dr_stParticipantI must admit my memory is a bit hazy when it comes to my first encounter with Lost Vikings 2. Was it a pirated CD-rip? Or a friend’s CD copy? I don’t remember, but I do remember I played through about half of it, then dropped it. A while later, I discovered the SNES ROM and played through it, and eventually, I did play through the PC version as well, although I certainly never did it more than once.
dr_stParticipantPix, that’s the TRPD level, with the platform moving down towards the portal, right?
I agree that a lot of these puzzles are based on trial-and-error and are almost impossible to figure out intuitively. Especially considering that sometimes you have to make split-second decisions or else you lose.
dr_stParticipantAnd another thing both of them have in common – they haven’t figured out the easier way to solve the Olaf on a magnet puzzle in that factory level (PLNG). Cannot blame them – I haven’t figured it out at first myself, and neither has a classmate of mine who was playing this game mostly in parallel with me.
The easier solution (which requires speed, but no Viking switching) is outlined at the bottom right of the map here:
http://www.videogamemaps.net/maps/snes/lostvikings/World%204,%20Level%202%20-%20Mephea.png
dr_stParticipantOne word of warning is that the ability to lose a full level worth of effort by dying seconds away from the exit never lets go and never stops frustrating.
You just have to suck it up and keep going. Remember this as you approach the TTRS level. Then figure out why the password is “TTRS”. š
dr_stParticipantGood point! They probably just lifted the logic “as is” from the console versions, which had controllers with limited number of buttons. They probably didn’t have functions like SelectVikingX() but just MoveToNextViking() and MoveToPreviousViking()…
dr_stParticipantThe controls cannot be remapped.
The idea is to use the arrow block (reverse T) for motion, and Right Ctrl (with your thumb) and NumPad 0 (with your pinky) to switch Vikings.
Of course, I only realized it in hindsight, since I got into the habit of playing with the numerical keypad. So I was using the NumPad 0 with my thumb, and Left Ctrl with my left hand.
Little did I know, that for people like me, they also mapped the Viking switch keys to Pad7/Pad9.
The thing that I _did_ do correctly was using ESDF for the action, instead of relying on Spacebar. ESDF was remarkably intuitive and I have since adopted it to use in some other games.
dr_stParticipantWell, maybe that’s because it’s not a DOS game originally. š
No, there is no way to save mid-level. The later levels become quite challenging because of that. Lose one Viking one step before the exit, and you have to start over.
There are 37 levels (43 in the Genesis version). It’s one of the longer games of that era, I think (especially considering that many levels are quite lengthy).
dr_stParticipantThanks for the offer, but I’m afraid podcasts and the like are not really my thing… I will be here on the forums to talk about anything that has to do with the game, though!
dr_stParticipantPressing F10 will highlight all the active areas on the screen. Yeah, I didn’t know that too during my first playthrough.
dr_stParticipantI seem to remember the “need to give gem to dealer outside of dialogue” as a major blunder too.
As for your other main complaint – lack of focus as to the next goal – I think you are onto something, and you summarized it quite well. All through the first (and longest) part of the game – I never felt I was chasing a specific goal, but rather multiple goals in parallel. It makes the game non-linear which is fun, but also confusing.
dr_stParticipantAFAIR, it’s impossible to have English/German voice + subtitles in the original releases. But other localized versions have subtitles.
dr_stParticipantThe second game (The Lion, The Wizard and the Wardrobe) is a lot like the first. Same engine, same gameplay, same humor.
I found the puzzles to be slightly less intuitive in the second one, but overall it still works.
The third game (Simon 3D) suffered from all the problems of early 3D conversions – ugly blocky graphics, unpolished controls and gameplay.
The fourth one (Chaos Happens) I know very little of, but my wife has played it and said it was OK. More like the first two, but with 3D graphics (way better than in Simon 3D). I think she claimed it felt rather short.
dr_stParticipantThat is true. When I played the DOS CD version, it was localized, so I had the full English voice-over and Hebrew subtitles. Worked quite well if you ask me!
The CD version of Simon 2, BTW, does have both audio and subtitles, in the English version too.
dr_stParticipantHPLovegames,
Which version is it you are trying to run? I just tried setup_simon_the_sorcerer_classic_(19666) and it worked fine (both floppy and CD versions). Did you customize the language in any way?
dr_stParticipantRoTT music is indeed totally awesome. Various songs have been used in user-made DOOM level packs, which is where I first heard them.
dr_stParticipantIt is almost embarrassing to admit that I have neve played Rise of the Triad to date. I have decided to finally see what it is all about and have gotten through a few levels of the shareware version so far, using the default “hard” (third out of four) difficulty.
It is quite challenging, as you are frequently attacked by hitscanners which you can hardly see, and then there are these floor traps… Don’t think I would want to try it with no mid-level saves.
It is quite impressive what they have done to improve and expand the Wolf3D engine.
dr_stParticipantGreat idea to start with the shareware. I don’t think I would have patience to play the full game these days.
dr_stParticipantHey, this was a nice read! Thanks for sharing.
Funny that he writes they did not want to use “God Mode” for invincibility as DOOM popularized that phrase. Maybe it did popularize it, but in DOOM itself – it was never called “God Mode”. The term was “Degreelessness Mode”.
dr_stParticipantI actually really dislike all these “achievements” that now seem to be a mandatory part in every game, including re-releases of old games. They seem too arbitrary.
dr_stParticipantI recall I got stuck twice during the playthrough, for a day or more each time. Not going to say exactly on what, so as to avoid spoiling, but in retrospective, these things, while not obvious, were definitely something that can be deduced (and in the end I did figure them both out without resorting to hints).
It felt something like “OK, I absolutely know that I need to get this item, or to do something with this thing here”. So even if nothing is obvious, I’m going to try everything in this room/area, until I find something that works. Oh, was that it? Yeah, I guess I could have thought about that earlier, haha.”
dr_stParticipantHaving played the remastered version just a couple of months ago, I must have missed the ability to use the verb interface with the new graphics, and the hint system…
dr_stParticipantThis is awesome! Way too complex for me; maybe my son will do it one day.
dr_stParticipantVery nice speedruns, thanks for sharing. The intentional use of deaths to restart at the beginning (saving backtracking) is a frequent element, which takes advantage of the fact that you retain all items collected.
I notice that the 1.0 versions are used, so the demons in episodes 2 and 3 succumb to a single hit of the blade. Heck (Episode 2 Level 9) would be far trickier without it! š
dr_stParticipantI just finished playing Episode 3 (Jill Saves the Prince) which I did to refresh my memory of it. This one is quite a bit hard than the previous two, with many tight situations and instant-death traps (spikes on platforms in mid-air are the worst). Many levels I had to restart multiple times, and some of them are quite long. Still, I managed to beat it playing leisurely over a couple of evenings.
This is where the game’s design, where the level is not reset upon your death plays nicely. These hard levels would have been ten times more frustrating, if you had to recollect all the keys and kill all the enemies again each time you died.
The third episode only has 15 levels (and really 14, since the last one is just the ending), but they are longer (and harder), so it does not feel shorter than the earlier episodes. Quite a good game, and the extra difficulty makes it a game you actually have to try to beat, rather than being able to wander through it half-mindlessly like the first episode (and somewhat the second).
dr_stParticipantThe second episode is nice, except Heck (level 9) is annoying and very difficult in some versions where the demons take an insanely long time to kill (as opposed to a single hit). This feel so unfair, that it is suspected to be a bug, but who knows. However, the GOG version should allow demons to be killed in a single hit of the blade, which makes this level much more reasonable.
Discussion here:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=672596#p672596I don’t remember Episode 3 much, except it introduces the level map (forest) where you walk and enter individual levels (instead of feeling like you are smoothly moving from one to the other as in Jill 1 and 2).
dr_stParticipantWell, apparently you don’t, and that was a false memory of mine. š
dr_stParticipantYes, I enjoyed Jazz at the time. Very great music, secrets within levels, secret levels (in 3D!), fast-paced Sonic-style gaming – all great. The platforming and collision detection is a bit annoying though.
dr_stParticipantYes, I just tried it now (played the first couple of levels). Even though the character looks somewhat like Jill, the level design feels more like Xargon. Movement is a bit more fluid, but I dislike the fact that it is no longer possible to throw the knives while crouching.
dr_stParticipantArrows to move, Shift and Alt for jump and fire? Seems pretty standard to me. Most games would use Ctrl and Alt, but it’s a very minor difference.
dr_stParticipantI played all 3 episodes, start to finish, probably more than two decades ago. Since then, replayed some parts a couple of times, but I am not sure I ever finished the third game since.
The soundtrack is one of the nicest things about the Jill Trilogy, and the mechanics of playing as different animals is rather original.
Control-wise, choppy is a good way to put it – it is very much grid-locked – unlike the very smooth, sometimes pixel-resolution platforming of games like Commander Keen. However, I found that once I adjusted to that, the game was quite fun.
dr_stParticipantCount me as one who has never played the Vinyl Goddess. I guess I should give it a try as well.
Does it have the same front-end menu to select each of the 3 episodes, like Jill and Xargon have?
dr_stParticipantDescent is a game that feels totally suited to joysticks, flightsticks and what not. Surprisingly, one of the best players I have seen (he has a Youtube channel) plays with keyboard only, and on DXX-Rebirth, no less. Here is his comment in his video where he described his control scheme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk_EKluatPM&lc=Ugiga3IU9r8TCngCoAEC.7-H0Z7-NWps7-Jjweg4x9Q
dr_stParticipantTo be honest, I never got good enough at Descent to beat it without cheats. The levels just become more and more frustrating with more convoluted mazes and tougher enemies.
I recall that one of my friends when he was playing the game when it came out, like 25 years ago had the following strategy for the first boss (Level 7): shoot, save, reload if dead, repeat. That should tell you much about it.
dr_stParticipantAwesome analysis! I love working generalization and complete problem solutions. š
dr_stParticipantCUE format supports data and audio tracks mixed within the same BIN image file (of course the audio is uncompressed this way). DOSBox supports audio from the BIN file as well as from external files, based on whatever the CUE specifies.
dr_stParticipantLovely video. Watched it and it felt to me exactly like the game itself – a random pile of unrelated things that makes absolutely no sense at all. š
dr_stParticipantWouldn’t you be playing it in DOSBox emulating a slower CPU anyways?
Or maybe in ScummVM? I dunno how that would work.
dr_stParticipantEvery major 3D shooter in the DOS era had secret levels. Wolfenstein 3D, DOOM, Heretic, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake – all had one per episode. Games that were not split to episodes (Spear of Destiny, DOOM II, Descent) had a couple as well; Hexen basically had one secret level per hub. It was like a mandatory element of the design. š
dr_stParticipantI think I got it as a freebie from the computer / D&D magazine I was subscribed to at the time. I didn’t like it one bit.
Based on the release dates, both MK and MK2, as well as SF2 were already available on the PC before Rise of the Robots got released, with MK3 and SSF2T coming not far behind. Not difficult to see why nobody would really want to play this game.
dr_stParticipantIt does appear the game is finicky with sound. On my ‘real DOS’ system I can almost never get the music to work, and with certain sound cards, even sound effects break up. Works perfectly in DOSBox, though.
dr_stParticipantIf you are feeling especially nostalgic, get the Sega 32X ROM, which has 4 additional levels in snowy mountains; if you don’t want to replay the first world, and only wish to see the snow levels – enter DTF3 as a password.
dr_stParticipantWell, F is what you are supposed to use. ESDF is ESDF for a reason – once you get used to it, it’s very convenient to have all the action buttons close by.
It’s the same control scheme used for Lost Vikings, which I played first, and I too started off by using Spacebar, until I figured out that it is actually holding me back, and switched over to F. By the time I got to Blackthorne, it was ESDF all the way. š
Which is why I hate that the updated Blizzard release makes you use both.
dr_stParticipantUnfortunately, the free version messed up the controls by forcing you to use different keys for jump and for fire, whereas the original DOS release used the same key, which made more sense to me.
dr_stParticipant7th guest is an interesting game with a nice atmosphere and some of the puzzles are quite tricky. I enjoyed it. Still remember the sentence with 11 Ys and no other vowels. š
dr_stParticipantI actually play all original DOOM and Build engine games with keyboard only, just because the mouselook is not right in them. They also don’t really require a mouse.
Source ports (Doomsday, eDuke32) are a different thing. It feels more natural to use mouse + WASD there.
dr_stParticipantThere’s also BloodCM which took a slightly different approach to NBlood; dunno if there is a point to it now that NBlood is out.
dr_stParticipantWhile not being generally an adventure/quest type player, I’ve played Simon the Sorcerer 1 and 2 pretty extensively back in the day and loved the atmosphere and humor. I never played any Monkey Island games (shame on me), but from a first glance it looks like it can be very similar, and I might enjoy it as well. Probably need to set up the Talkie Edition first…
dr_stParticipant
dr_stParticipantTry the last map of the Orc expansion campaign and enjoy having the 800-HP dragon at your disposal. š
dr_stParticipantThere are 14 levels in each of the base campaigns, and 12 in each of the expansion campaigns.
dr_stParticipantFrom what I remember, the expansion levels indeed do get more difficult.
dr_stParticipantEnglish accent? The Orcish accent for the Orc campaign is even better. š
dr_stParticipantWell, you can still click a unit’s avatar in the sidebar to immediately select that unit, or you can shift-click a unit to deselect it (remove it from the group). This simplifies the separation of ‘healthy’ vs ‘wounded’ units a bit.
The general strategies against the AI seem to be:
1) Build your base while defending against attacks using tactically placed melee units with archers behind them (combine with towers if you wish).
2) Build 2-3 groups of super-tough units and send them to destroy the enemy bases bit by bit.On land I’d mostly use Ogres / Ogre Mages (Knights / Paladins). If the enemy has fliers, then also include some trolls / archers in the group.
On sea maps I would use groups of destroyers, or juggernauts/battleships once they are available. One word of advise, though – always have a couple of destroyers accompanying your heavy ships in the event of being attacked by fliers – battleships/juggernauts cannot attack air!
Once air units are available, everything else becomes kinda useless – groups of dragons / gryphons can pretty much take out everything the AI throws at you.
dr_stParticipantI think the main appeal of the Warcraft series is the fantasy world setup.
But if anything, you just made me want to play C&C.
dr_stParticipantI must admit I only ever played Warcraft with the “on screen” cheat that shows the entire map. I felt like I do not want to play “hide-n-seek” with the AI, preferring to play “chess” instead. The AI does not explore; it always knows the location of your base and sends the units directly to it.
The AI also does not really manage resources; its economy is simpler – as long as it has peons/peasants collecting gold/lumber it can create new units. If you kill all of its peasants and destroy the town hall – it will never build more units and never send any more to attack you, so you can safely gather your forces until you are ready to destroy them. This is true per individual player color – if playing against multiple AI “players” each of them has its own economy.
There is also a bug where for whatever reason all AI players simply stop creating troops and attacking your base. I haven’t figured out how its triggered, but saving/reloading can either trigger it or “release” it.
dr_stParticipantThere are cheat codes to speed up construction and resource gathering, but they affect all players, so it’s definitely NOT recommended to activate them when playing against the AI, because the AI WILL overrun you. Haha. š
dr_stParticipantYes, the fast scroll is a known bag on fast CPUs. It’s a good thing DOSBox lets us control it. š
I’m quite happy that I managed to snatch a cheap copy of the Warcraft Battle Chess years ago. Can’t beat those big boxes with all the manuals for the original games included!
https://www.amazon.com/Warcraft-Battle-Chest-Darkness-PC-Mac/dp/B00002SUHI
dr_stParticipantDavidN,
To be honest, I did not have much more problems with the average flying head compared to the average bird-headed guard. In both fights, I often take damage, but deal more than I take. Timing is usually enough… The only really hard ones (that deal 3-4 points of damage in a single bite) are those that guard the life-extending potions in the second and third ruins levels, but they are optional.
Pix,
I have never known any version of PoP1 or PoP2 to be speed-sensitive, but to be sure I played it as extensively as I could today through DOSBox as well as on my K6-II “real hardware” system, and found no differences.
However, I have a possible explanation – have you by chance been playing the “initial release”? This is the one where cheats are activated using “prince makinit” and if you press Alt+V it just says “Prince of Persia 2” without a version number?
If so, then this might be the problem – I’ve played this version a bit today, and found that I am much more likely to miss running jumps in this one compared to the newer “1.0”/”1.1″, and also the goblin heads may have been out-of-alignment more frequently (although I’m not 100% sure on that one).
So it looks like they really did fix some subtle bugs (in addition to the obvious ones) in the final releases.
dr_stParticipantSo, I finished my own playthrough of PoP2, to refresh my memory, and can say the following things:
* The running jump timing was not as terrible as I remembered. Sure it is still easier to miss than in PoP1, but I found that it rarely happened to me if I concentrated on the jump.
* I noticed what Pix mentioned about the goblin heads not always stopping at the same distance from you, making them impossible to hit. However, I observed that the first time they hit you and push you back, this is reset, and now they will be at the correct distance (you are still responsible for the timing, though). So you may sometimes be forced to lose some health (up to 4 bottles for some of the heads!), but generally you can still defeat them, without bothering with stopping at the correct tile.
* Versions 1.0 and 1.1 (but not the initial release) have a bug that if you save in the second caves level, then load the game, cutscenes will not be playing for the rest of the game. This has the side-effect that the countdown will not start (it is triggered by the tree cutscene after the second cave level, or if you die in it), so you have infinite time! Unfortunately, also the horse sequence will not show, so you will have a wrong palette at the beginning of the first temple level (saving and reloading fixes this).
* As far as the levels themselves go, I managed to get through most of them without saving/reloading, or at most with one mistake. Exceptions are the first and third temple levels, where I had to refresh my memory a lot to do everything right. The third temple level is particularly terrible. It has at least 5-6 different spots where a single mistake (which requires foreknowledge) will make the level unwinnable.
dr_stParticipantThank you for doing this! It was very entertaining to watch. I must try to trigger some of these bugs that allow skipping portions of levels. š
dr_stParticipant>> I think the only essential potion is the feather falling
>> one without which you cannot finish that one level.Even that is not essential, if you have at least two hitpoints left. You can just hang down from the ledge and drop; this makes it a two-storey drop, so you only lose a single hitpoint. š
dr_stParticipantWell, you can get rid of the music with Alt+M (although it’s there for the atmosphere and, therefore, only hectic during fights; the first level is basically a non-stop fight).
I think that for games of that era it was expected that you would have had the manual and would have read it. It would also explain that Ctrl (as opposed to Shift) is used to draw the sword…
Oh, and don’t judge PoP2 by the first level. Most of the game is completely different (although in the late levels you get fighting sections that are just as long, and are much harder).
dr_stParticipantPix,
>> The snakes seem to have the same problem as the heads
>> where you need to be in the right position to be able
>> to strike them.There is not a single snake in the game that must be actually struck. š You can always avoid them or jump over them.
>> Combined with the jumping it smacks of a minor bug to
>> me where the player can get out of alignment with the
>> tile positions.This is an interesting observation and it’s quite possibly a true explanation.
>> So much of beating POP2 seemed to come down to
>> learning by rote exactly where to stand for each figt
>> or start each jump and I was having to use trial and
>> error to figure it all out.I didn’t notice it being a problem with fights, to be honest. With jumps – yes, a little bit.
>> I was also getting a good number of crashes on my PII
>> which rubbed it in when they happened after one of
>> the mid-level checkpoints that Iād struggled to get
>> to for ages. Maybe I should have tried slowing my PC
>> down a bit in hindsight.You may have been playing an early, buggy and crash-prone version of the game. Crashes are much less frequent with the later 1.01/1.1 versions, but they still happen (often because of sound bugs).
>> There was a lot of satisfaction to cleaving through a
>> load of goblin heads after getting a full length
>> sword again.I almost think they put all those goblin heads there intentionally, for that satisfaction. š
dr_stParticipantI kind-of agree with everything you guys say, but disagree with the bottom line. š
PoP2 is not flawed. It’s just HARD. It’s harder than the first, and I think it was completely intentional. For example: PoP1 also has puzzles where you only have one chance and can end up in an unwinnable situation – they are just far, far simpler (both in figuring them out and in execution), so you don’t get infuriated as much.
The levels are also much shorter in PoP1, so there are fewer puzzles –> fewer traps –> fewer restarts and shorter duration of average restart –> less frustrated players. š
Combat is also harder in PoP2 – PoP1 had only a couple of guards were you really needed to combine block and strike – PoP2 has many more of these (pretty much all the bird-headed temple guards, and a few of the skeletons in the caves). The goblin heads require very precise timing and rhythm, although I did not notice that initial position mattered as much (and you can always inch a bit forward/backward if needed).
All in all, I think the developers just wanted to make a harder game, that will be challenging to players who already mastered PoP1, and they succeeded. If it had been toned down to the same level of difficulty, newbies would be happier, but oldtimers may have been disappointed that the game did not provide enough hours of play time.
The only aspect where I’m not sure that the change was intentional, is the timing on running jumps. The game really requires it to be much more precise – jump too early or too late and you plummet to your death either at the near or at the far edge. It may be that they took out the position adjustment code to make things harder, or it may be an actual bug. It is also the thing that annoyed me the most in the game, and I wish it was back in.
As Pix noticed – pausing and starting the jump from the correct location usually allows you to make the jump safely, but there are a few sequences where you don’t have the time to pause, because some door is closing, and this is very annoying, especially since often you have to restart way-way-back if you miss.
FWIW, PoP2 does allow you to save in the beginning of every level, like PoP1, so at least you after all the exploration and learning is done, and you pass the level on the first try, you can save your progress. This will guarantee you will not run out of time before the end of the game.
dr_stParticipantThat’s true. In fact, the first component to any speedrun is skipping all these upgrades. A lot of time is saved this way.
Prince of Persia 2 makes it impossible to skip the life upgrades! You start with 3 hitpoints, can get a maximum of 12, and need at least 11 to beat the last level. If you got to the last level with fewer than that, there is an endless supply of life-extending potions, but it takes time to get them, probably more than you would save by skipping the upgrades throughout the levels.
It is also worth mentioning, that (unlike in PoP1) there are more life upgrades scattered in the levels of PoP2 than the maximum number of hitpoints you can get, so some of them are worth skipping; speedrun experts know which ones. š
dr_stParticipantNote:
“prince megahit” works on version 1.0. For version 1.3 and 1.4 it’s “prince improved”.
Another observation: when using N/U/H/J to browse the level, you can use K to kill the guards, but they don’t stay dead – they will come back to life if you visit the same screen again (in real life or while “browsing”).
Also, if you kill an enemy, then quickly browse away from the screen and come back to it, the enemy will come back to life too. It seems that the game only registers killed enemies when the prince physically leaves the screen – if you leave it and come back, enemies will not come back to life even if you use U/N/H/J.
Warning: Using K to kill the skeleton can freeze the game!
dr_stParticipantSweet! Did you get all the life-extending potions (Levels 2,3,4,7,9,11)? If so, you would have 10 hit points at the end of it (you get another one by merging with your reflection).
dr_stParticipantI watched your excellent and informative video a while ago and even commented on it, without making the connection to your account on this forum. š
I really think the SNES is quite good, and is certainly worth playing for how different it is. But I still like the DOS version the best.
dr_stParticipantGood tips, all. I would add a couple of points:
* Be careful when trying to crouch to avoid damage from a falling plate; it requires precise timing – if you are still crouched when it hits, you will lose not one, but two points!
* Combining jumps with grabbing ledges – standing jump is 2 tiles, running jump OR standing jump + ledge grab is 3 tiles, running jump + ledge grab is 4 tiles. 4 tiles is the maximum gap you can jump over. In PoP2 you can actually cross 5-tile gaps if there is a ledge to grab one floor below, but PoP1 either doesn’t have these mechanic, or has no areas set up to take advantage of them.
* Some enemies fence better than others. Most of the bright yellow ones are a notch above the rest for whatever reason. Of course the real masters are the fat guard in level 6 and Jaffar himself. With these you need to do a lot of block+strike tapping.
Regarding the controls, you nailed it. It’s not unresponsiveness, it’s realism! In real life you cannot do a standing jump two human heights into the air, then reverse direction mid flight and land on a floor above and behind you. In real life, if you don’t jump at the precise moment near the ledge you will either fall off or come up short. That’s what Prince of Persia is all about. And I must say, that PoP1 is actually very generous in terms of timing – during a run-up you can push up a couple of tiles before the edge and the prince will still jump at the last moment. PoP2 was not so generous.
dr_stParticipantOh yeah! Once I saw that Prince of Persia is the next month’s game, I couldn’t wait for it to actually show up in the forums so I could participate in the discussions.
This is one of my all-time favorite games – both the original, and the entire series. With the exception of the really rather terrible “Prince of Persia 3D” and the rather OK-but-bland “Forgotten Sands”, I have fond memories of all the games.
But, since this is mostly about the original, let’s go back to that. š
It is one of the earliest PC games I’ve been introduced to, playing it during the early nineties on my uncle’s 386. Naturally I sucked badly. A couple of years later a friend of mine got it on his 386, and this time we played together and gradually got better, until we could each beat the game. It really felt like an accomplishment.
And funnily, Prince of Persia is one of the game that I own legally, without having paid for it directly. I received the CD version of PoP + PoP2 with a monthly PC gaming magazine I was subscribed to back in the nineties. That version still had the original copy protection, but they forgot to attach the relevant manual information until the following month. š I bet many folks that did not already own cracked versions were quite unhappy about it.
dr_stParticipant*Run the setup program (Setup.exe)
*Controller Setup
*Setup Advanced Controller Options
*Advanced Mouse Setup
*Mouse X AxisDo share if you find this control scheme easier to use. š
dr_stParticipantThe Playstation version (Duke Nukem: Total Meltdown) has a very different, more metal/techno soundtrack. A few tunes are the same, a few are “remixed” versions of original tunes, and a lot are original. It was composed by Mark “TDK” Knight:
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/mark_knight_f1/duke_nukem__total_meltdown/
dr_stParticipantMore on this topic:
Build engine also cannot do full room over room, because the map is still 2D. There are ingenious tricks in the engine that allow the feeling of room over room.
One is silent teleporters that basically take you to a different place in the map (this is what happens every time you dive under water – check it).
The second key element has to do with the way the engine renders sectors – it does not care about their absolute position in space, only the connections between them. So two sectors can really overlap or occupy the same area in space, as long as they are not visible at the same time. So you can “feel” room over room, but you can never see room over room.
The latter feature allows some amazing things that are almost unheard of in 3D games. I encourage you guys playing it right now to check the following secret levels to understand what I’m talking about and to be deeply impressed:
E2L11 – Lunatic Fringe (exit from E2L08 – Dark Side)
http://legacy.3drealms.com/duke3d/walkthrough/e2m9.htmlE3L10 – Tier Drops (exit from E3L05 – Movie Set)
http://legacy.3drealms.com/duke3d/walkthrough/e3m5.html
dr_stParticipantCome to think about it, all of the most famous Build Engine games (Duke Nukem 3D, Shadow Warrior, Blood, Redneck Rampage) feature much more realistic level design compared to the DOOM and Quake games.
Thus it’s got to be something more than just the style of the designers who worked on the levels (because these were different people); there must be something inherent to the engine, or the editing tools, that make it much easier to pull off realistic-looking environments.
dr_stParticipantMarch 16, 2018 at 6:29 pm in reply to: What a Game! aka. WHY DID NOBODY TELL ME _HOW_ GOOD IT IT?? #1224I believe that if you set Parental controls to on, it should get rid of most of the child-unfriendly stuff, including the sexism.
When playing using keyboard only, I always use the keypad, not the arrows. This way you can much easier use Pad7/Pad1 to aim, Pad9/Pad3 to look up/down and Pad5 to center the view. I think this is how it’s meant to be played on a keyboard-only setup.
dr_stParticipantI never tried it over LAN, only “Hot seat”. It’s easier to set up, and you don’t have the element of uncertainty “when is that guy going to finish up his turn???”, but you lose some of the mystery, as all human players know what all other human players are up to.
Come to think of it, last time I played Heroes multiplayer was with my lovely wife. We would make a pact not to attach each other until all AI enemies are beaten. Interestingly she enjoyed the first game more than the second one, where she did not appreciate the extra complexity.
dr_stParticipantIn the second game, the special structure in the Warlock castle actually produces an extra 500 gold a day, just to balance out the cost of the troops. In Heroes 1, better find a gold mine, or a gold-producing artifact, or conquer another castle. š
dr_stParticipantI think that in the first 3 games in the HoM&M series, it really makes sense to start playing them in order. Each game introduces extra complexity to the elements it takes from the previous one. Starting with HoM&M 3 would overwhelm a lot of players (unless they already have experience with similar games).
Heck, I’ve played the first two games a lot, and HoM&M 3 still overwhelmed me. I never grew as fond of it as most seem to be. I think it’s because in my nature I prefer games that are somewhat confined, rather than those that seem infinitely expandable.
The first game is a bit too confined. There really is only so much you can do. The second adds a lot more things, which increase depth and the number of available strategies, and the third takes it a little bit too far, in my opinion.
dr_stParticipantWhen I played the campaign, I felt that the level that puts you up against the Barbarian, Lord Slayer, is the hardest, because the Barbarians start sending powerful heroes to attack your castles almost immediately, and with the ‘no movement penalty on rough terrain’ they can cross the desert and be at your door step within 2-3 weeks, making it tough to survive the initial onslaughts. But if you do, it gets easier.
You can avoid this level entirely if you choose the Barbarians to play the campaign to begin with. š
dr_stParticipantTrolls also regenerate hitpoints at the start of every round (something not immediately obvious). If your troll got even 1 point of health left at the end of the round, next round it starts at 40 again. It can help avoid some of the attrition that the enemy archers do to trolls during long battles (since the AI will go for your most powerful ranged unit at all times).
One technique against Hydras is to try to take them out of the game by casting Blind/Paralyze on them (Paralyze is especially good since they can’t retaliate either). The AI uses that technique a lot. Then you can finish of the other creatures, and then focus on the hydras. Doesn’t help when fighting groups of hydras in the wild, though. š
Regarding morale: You get -1 for 3 classes, -2 for 4 and -3 for 5. Since a Knight hero has +1 morale, and since you can usually find some artifacts that boost morale as well, I figure that 3 classes is something you can handle without morale penalties for the most part. 4-5 is probably too much already.
Phoenixes – well, they are very strong, the 2nd strongest in the game (after dragons), and against pack creatures even a small group is probably enough. However, when fighting enemy heroes, I’ve learned that attack/defense skills matter more than one realizes at first.
Consider Paladins, for instance. They are not as strong as a Phoenix, but their production is double, and they strike twice. Take a Knight hero with high attack/defense, against a Sorceress hero with low attack/defense, and a double-sized stack of Paladins will easily make minced meat out of Phoenix.
dr_stParticipantI mostly agree with your selection of armies for the 4 classes. Peasants are useless, of course, and Dwarfs/Hydra are much more useful as castle defense creatures than in a traveling army.
The one class where I’m not conclusive on is Barbarian. Ogres are very tough but are also slow. So, choosing between them and Goblins, I would sometimes prefer to take Goblins with me for traveling (as the hero moves faster). This is especially true if you are in a map with lots of Goblin huts where you can get more Goblins to join you for free. So, sometimes I would choose Ogres, sometimes Goblins.
In the end, it does not matter as much as one thinks, because at some point in the game you will have more than one hero, and you will have conquered some castles of other classes. In the end your most powerful hero will probably have a mix of powerful creatures from 2-3 classes.
Dragons, well, they are totally awesome. They are way overpowered in this game. It is true that their speed is Medium, so a fast creature (like a Phoenix) will get to attack first, but it typically will not make a difference. Their total spell immunity allows massive exploits – take a strong spellcaster with a few Dragons, walk around and cast Armageddon / Storm, causing hundreds of damage points to all enemy creatures, while the dragons are not affected.
In the sequel, they tried to balance things out a bit, by adding ‘Dragon slayer’ spell which boost attack against dragons, and adding powerful Titan units that, while not immune to spells, can also benefit from good spells (like Bless), and can often match and surpass dragons, depending on the skills and spells available to your hero.
dr_stParticipantOh, you mean that the tracks that play during map exploration have that ambient noise (kind of like sound effects superimposed on the music)?
I understand what you mean; interestingly I never gave it a second thought. Probably because the first time I played through the first game was through an early CD-Rip that had no music at all, just ambient noises.
FWIW, the music that plays in the towns/castles and during battles, does not have that ambience added.
dr_stParticipantThe economy thing is quite nice about Scorched Earth, but it also is a pretty big potential game breaker.
Once you win a couple of rounds and get enough money to buy shields, you are practically indestructible. Very few things can penetrate a shield (especially the heavy-duty one), and it is likely that the other players don’t have them yet.
Thus, if you are not unlucky enough to get killed before your first turn, you activate the shield, which gives you at least 80% of winning the round (90% if you also bought parachutes!), which means you will get more cash, with which you can buy… more shields, and run away winning almost every round.
When playing with other friends we sometimes agreed to not use shields, just for this reason.
dr_stParticipantOh, and E3M6 is a particularly awesome level. It’s probably THE example of non-linear level design in DOOM. And it has a pretty unusual (at the time) trick to get to the secret exit to E3M9: Warrens. Have you discovered it?
dr_stParticipantYou expressed it very nicely, sorceress. I had similar feelings when I played the game ages ago, but never managed to put my finger on it. To date I can barely remember the designs of most E2 levels – they are like a blur in my mind – whereas most E1 I remember quite well. E3 is a little better in this regard, but not as good as E1.
All E1 levels except E1M8 where designed by John Romero, whereas none of E2/E3 where. Many of the things that positively distinguish E1 from E2 are straight out of his “design rules”:
https://doomwiki.org/wiki/John_Romero#Design_rules
I guess this shows you that his reputation as a master designer is at least partially deserved. :
)
dr_stParticipantThe original DOOM levels are really quite easy, even with keyboard only. However, if you are not used to playing keyboard-only, you will feel somewhat handicapped by that.
Once you go to DOOM2 and the 4th episode of Ultimate DOOM, and then Final DOOM, things start getting quite a bit harder; however, it is still perfectly manageable with keyboard only. All of the original levels in the original games are. It is when you go to the user-created level packs that you find some really hard ones, for which keyboard-only can become an insurmountable handicap.
The fact that the game can be difficult despite “dumb” straightforward enemies shows that good “smart” AI is not the only way to make a game challenging. Early FPSs like DOOM, Quake etc. (and similar concept games like Serious Sam) succeed mostly by presenting overwhelming numbers of tough enemies. Many modern FPSs will put you against smaller groups of smarter enemies instead. These are just different approaches and personally I don’t find one better than the other – it depends on how well a game implements whatever approach it chooses.
dr_stParticipantYes, the evil soldiers are possessed humans.
I don’t remember exactly where it was explained; possibly in the manual, possibly in some FAQ. But even the sprite names used for them in DOOM.WAD make it clear:
Pistol Soldier – POSS (Possessed)
Shotgun Soldier – SPOS (Shotgun Possessed)
Chaingunner – CPOS (Chaingun Possessed, DOOM2 only)
dr_stParticipantYou can totally play DOOM with the mouse and WASD, just like you would any modern FPS (minus the fact that there is no vertical freelook). However, this requires manually setting the mouse sensitivity to a very high number (40+?) in the configuration file. The maximum setting available in the in-game Options menu would make the mouse too slow to be usable.
This is a great example of how the community figured out better ways to play than was envisioned by the original designers. DOOM was intended to be perfectly playable with keyboard only (and to be fair, it is perfectly playable with keyboard only). But once folks realized they can be much faster and more efficient playing with the mouse, the game changed. This opened the door to higher level deathmatching, and much harder, moster-packed levels, which are very difficult (some probably impossible) to beat for keyboard-only players.
